Mark Anderson: Fully Optimized

Mark Anderson is more than just an impressive climber. He’s also the co-author of the wildly popular The Rock Climber’s Training Manual, a husband, a father of two young children, and a prolific route developer. Oh yeah, and he balances all of this with a full-time career completely independent of rock climbing. On top of all that, Mark and his wife are pursuing financial independence!

Before we get going, I have a couple of notes to explain some concepts discussed by Mark in the interview below. The acronym “FIRE” refers to the Financial Independence/Retire Early community. We introduced this concept here and here. I recommend you quickly peruse those posts first to get some context.

Mr. CC Meets Mark Anderson

I first met Mark a few years ago in a very unexpected way. He replied to a desperate, last-minute request I made on the Mountain Project forums for a climbing partner in Clear Creek Canyon. Who does that?

Back in 2015, Mark and his brother Mike were quickly becoming household names in the world of climbing training. Mark was also walking the walk; putting down 5.14+ routes in his late 30’s without signs of slowing down.

“Why in the hell would a semi-professional climbing badass want to climb with me?”

I don’t generally give a damn about celebrities or big names in any arena. But I was impressed with what Mark was doing. He was not only climbing hard, but he was balancing an actual career, a marriage, and the demands of fatherhood with two young children. He and Mike were finding time in the margins of a “normal life” to climb at an elite level and create a foundational text of climbing training. I had read the book, was following his training plans, and even reading his blog. I was (and still am) impressed.

After awkwardly apologizing for falling on 5.11, I got it together and we had some good discussions. We’ve since climbed all around the Front Range together, and he’s been very generous to take me to his newly developed crags. Since I’ve launched this site, we’ve even gotten our families together over dinner to discuss finances and what this means for our future.

This is what I like about Mark. He could surround himself with big names in the climbing world and live in a bubble, but he appears to relish in climbing in normal places with normal people.

Let’s dive in and take a look at the world according to Mark:

Climbing Achievements

CC: Can you list 3-5 of your favorite climbing achievements?

Mark: In chronological order:

• Freerider (5.13a), ground up, 2 falls, unofficial First Free “Average Joe” Ascent of El Cap in Yosemite National Park

• First on sight ascent of the Free Route (5.12b) on the Totem Pole, Tasmania

• First Free Ascent of Spaceshot (5.13a), Zion National Park

• Third ascent of Shadowboxing (5.14d), Rifle Mountain Park

Early Climbing Life

CC: In a prior life before kids/jobs/etc., how did you structure your life around climbing? Any extended road trips or overseas trips of note?

Mark: I didn’t structure my life much different than how I do now, although obviously we had more flexibility to choose objectives.  When I was first getting serious I would usually sport climb on Saturdays and trad climb on Sundays. 

Sport climbing gradually took over as I ticked off everything on my trad bucket list. My history as a working stiff predates my history as a serious climber by about a year. I’ve always had to fit climbing in around my job. 

I did an 18-month stint as a van-dwelling dirtbag during 2004-2005.  During that time I climbed a lot at Smith and Rifle, spent some time in Yosemite (including doing Freerider). I also traveled to Australia, New Zealand, Thailand and Canada. 

I’m really grateful for that because it allowed me to experience that life and realize that, while certainly rewarding in many ways, I could never be fully satisfied with that life in the long run.

On Balancing Family and a Career

CC: How old are your children?

Mark: 7 and 5

CC: What do you do in your current career?

Mark: I forward emails, which is a concise way of saying I am a mid-level supervisor of engineers in a government bureaucracy.

Managing Time

CC: How much time do you have each week to climb and train? Do you feel you have any advantages or disadvantages in the way your “climbing life” is structured?

Mark: I work a 40 hour week.  My work schedule is somewhat flexible in that I get every other Friday off.  I also get 26 days off per year. 

When I’m in a Performance Phase I typically take my work Fridays off too, or work half of each Friday if I’m climbing locally. So, I can climb outside every Friday and Sunday when I’m locked in on a project. This works well for me, and I feel I have plenty of time to get my training and climbing in. 

My system of training and climbing doesn’t demand a lot of time (~10 hours per week if my project is local) but it does demand a lot of rest, which is perfect for a long-weekend warrior. From my perspective, working Monday -Thursday is almost an advantage. It keeps me well rested and provides a good distraction. 

When I dirtbagged I struggled to get enough rest, though I noticed my technique improved rapidly. Certainly, I’d rather not work, but it could be worse. At least my job isn’t physically demanding.

Logistics

Mark: It’s really all about time management and you have to be a master at that. I am always in a hurry, to the point that even when I have no reason to hurry, I rush from task to task out of habit.

The alpine and wall climbing I did when I was younger really helped me master logistics. That helps a lot when you’re trying to coordinate and schedule school pickups, swimming lessons, babysitters, weather, belayers, etc.

It’s really all about time management and you have to be a master at that.

When I’m climbing locally I almost always warm up at home, drive to the crag and then jump straight on my project. This doesn’t save me a whole lot of time but it often means one less hour of a babysitter and/or partner’s time.

Also, I do all my training at home. I have everything I need at home except a crag. That saves me a ton of time and allows me ultimate schedule flexibility.

A Salute to the Wives in our Lives

Mark: Kate is extremely supportive of my climbing and I would not have accomplished anything as a climber without her support. Before we had kids, she was “just” a super devoted partner. In those days she did all sorts of crazy things that no normal significant other would put up with. For instance, rapping 70 meters to stand on a tiny, barnacle covered rock in the Tasman Sea, literally getting pummeled by icy cold waves while I fiddled with gear on the Totem Pole.

It’s only gotten harder since the kids arrived. Now she is a super devoted partner while simultaneously caring for the kids and providing a home for them (and me).

There have been many days where she’s belaying me in some miserable situation with sideways sleet or some other calamity, nursing a baby between my goes and patiently listening to a crying, whining, tantrum (from me). She’s really a saint and I truly don’t understand why she puts up with me.

See Kate Climb

Kate’s been climbing since we met in 2000, but not as seriously as I do. I’m happy to say she’s had a bit of a renaissance since the kids have gotten more manageable (about 2-3 years ago).

Logistically speaking, she climbs with her group of friends twice a week while I watch the kids. I almost always climb on Fridays and Sundays, so she watches the kids when I’m climbing outside on Sundays. On road trips or situations where I can’t find another partner, we find a sitter or bring the kids if practical. That’s when things get interesting!

Finances and Potential Early Retirement

CC: We’ve discussed some on saving and investing for a potential early “retirement”. What does that look like for you and your family?

Mark: When Kate was fresh out of college she read books like The Millionaire Next Door and Your Money or Your Life. She got really interested in saving and eventually got me on board. I don’t consider us FIRE disciples exactly but I admire that community and we utilize many of the same principles.

Frugal Living

We try to live a relatively frugal life. We save as much as we can, max out our 401K’s and invest the rest in low-fee index funds. By FIRE or even climber standards I would say we aren’t particularly frugal. Relative to our Engineer peers we live like paupers. 

We try to maximize simple cost-saving measures like doing home and auto repairs ourselves. We buy used cars, bikes, and climbing ropes (J/k on that last one). 

A Path Towards Financial Independence

We try to live a relatively frugal life, save as much as we can, max out our 401K’s and invest the rest in low-fee index funds.

I would say the biggest difference between us and a typical FIRE nerd is that we don’t really pay attention to our money.  I just don’t want to worry about it and live or die with every stock fluctuation. We set up automatic disbursements to our investment accounts and then forget about it. 

Actually, Clipping Chains has gotten me much more interested in the details and I’ve started tracking our expenses more closely and running some numbers to see where we are. CC Note: Winning 🙂

By simple FIRE math (FI = 25 x Annual Expenses) we are close to financial independence now. We’re pretty risk averse financially speaking, so we want to have a lot of margin in our calculations.  Young kids create a lot of uncertainty in the FI equation.

It’s one thing for Kate and I to accept the risk that we may have to sell our house or work at Walmart if the market tanks. It’s another thing to consign your 5-year-old daughter to those consequences. 

A Vision of “Retirement”

We expect to travel a lot, and maybe take our kids out of school and travel the world for a year. That could mean our expenses will go up in retirement, so we have to account for that. 

On the other hand, I don’t envision a retirement of total professional idleness. I see FI as an opportunity to switch from an unfulfilling career that pays well to an engaging but part-time career where pay is an afterthought. I’d love to get more into coaching, writing, and maybe some other entrepreneurial things in “retirement.” 

Hopefully those activities will produce some tangible income. I don’t want the pressure of having to earn to put bread on the table, knowing that I could just muddle through another year or two in the office and never have to worry about it.

Costs of Raising Children

CC: The cost of raising a child is touted as exceeding $234,000. Do you feel this number is accurate for you and your family?

Mark: I think it’s BS. If you measure what the average American spends on anything, from cars, to houses, to TV, it would drastically exceed what the average FIRE adherent (or climber) spends. That said, I’m probably not the right person to ask since we’re only about 1/3 of the way through raising our kids. 

Youngins Ain’t Cheap

I can tell you child care is expensive by any standard. That is one thing I track in a spreadsheet. 🙂 Despite bargain shopping, we’ve paid $65K on child care between the two so far. That is tailing off dramatically now that both kids are in school, from a peak of ~$17K per year when both were in full time day care to about $3K over the last year.

These figures do not include the cost of full day pre-school, kindergarten, or before/after care. So let’s say on the order of $50K per kid in child care and pre-1st grade tuition. I don’t see spending another $184,000 each on food and clothes, but with what gyms are charging for Kids Climbing Team fees maybe you could get close. 🙂

Obviously, the ever-rising cost of college is a big concern (as well as the ever-rising appetite of my son). That’s the sort of uncertainty that makes FIRE planning scary, or exciting, depending on your point of view. Just like climbing!

Creating Something: Route Development

I enjoy being alone in the wilderness and I’ve always really liked to explore the unknown, even as a small kid. I guess I would say my motivation to do First Ascents is probably 50% exploration, 25% a desire to avoid crowds, and 25% a desire to leave a legacy behind.

Initially, I was more motivated by glory, but I’ve come to realize that 1) nobody cares and 2) the legacy of my children — whether or not they appreciate me — and their impact on the world, will completely overwhelm any sort of climbing legacy I might leave behind.

Relative to repeating other hard routes, it takes so much work, time and sacrifice for me to send 5.14+. I want it to count for something. In 10 years absolutely nobody will care who did the 17th ascent of Just Do It. Somebody somewhere might care who did the First Ascent of Insurrection.

Lessons Learned

CC: After years of climbing and training, what are some of your most important lessons that you’d like to pass on to others in the sport?

Mark: When I was in my early 20’s, the conventional wisdom in climbing circles was, if you can, you should get out on the road, dirtbag-style, and enjoy your youth and health while you can. You have your whole life to be a cubicle drone. 

Well, I’m 41 now. I’m a couple years or so from retirement (or semi-retirement), I’m healthier than I’ve ever been and I’m a couple NUMBER grades better at climbing than I was in my early 20s. 

Do we have this backwards? People are not just living longer but are extending their physical primes well into their 40s, 50s, or even 60s (especially climbers). Knowing what we do about the FIRE movement, should we be delaying dirtbagging instead of delaying working? 

I’d probably be retired already if I I hadn’t dirtbagged for 18 months 15 years ago. Instead of delaying having kids, maybe we should be having kids earlier so we can retire and hit the road, in our climbing prime.

I’m a couple NUMBER grades better at climbing than I was in my early 20s. Do we have this backwards? …Should we be delaying dirtbagging instead of delaying working?

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Parting Thoughts

For more of Mark’s wisdom on the lessons he’s learned in his climbing career, I highly recommend his 40 Climbing Lessons post.

If you’re interested in training for climbing, please visit the forum at the RCTM site. Mark gives away tons of free advice where others generally charge a fee.

Note: All photos, unless otherwise stated, were swiped from the Rock Climber’s Training Manual blog. Go visit!