Helloooo friends, and welcome to Clipping Chains. This is your host Mr. CC. Wait…does that sound familiar? If so, you—like me—might find yourself listening to a lot of climbing’s refreshing new podcast: The Nugget Climbing Podcast, by Steven Dimmitt.
Today, we’re flipping the mic, so to speak. Steven shares with us how he decided to leave his traditional job as an engineer, move into a van, and start a podcast about life and climbing. He is cultivating a livable income from a product often given away for free. Most importantly, we discuss how Steven is honing a craft that simply cannot be ignored.
It begs the questions: What does it take to make this a repeatable path?
What It Takes
When it comes to jobs and careers, I’ve warned that chasing your dreams might be a bad idea. By definition, most people aren’t willing to give the extraordinary effort required for extraordinary results. To be successful as a creative entrepreneur requires an uncommon level of independence and productivity to stand above the rest. To thrive in the gig economy, the bare minimum that might have passed muster under the veil of a large employer won’t cut it. Yet Steven, at nearly 32 years, is one of these folks who is pulling it off.
Steven and I first connected over our separate interviews of climber and software engineer extraordinaire Mike Doyle. At the time, in early 2020, I had little desire for any additional podcasts in my life, much less another climbing podcast. In fact, I was unsubscribing from many of podcasts that were no longer providing value.
When web traffic started showing up on my website from this new Nugget Podcast, I reluctantly downloaded a few episodes and went on my typical long walk. And then I downloaded more. And more. Then I mashed the “subscribe” button.
It was clear that Steven did his homework, asked great questions, and simply listened (a very difficult task). Emails turned to phone calls, and I eventually found myself huddled in a closet during peak lockdown, recording an episode with Steven from his van (link here). I’m very thankful that we crossed paths. Now I’m a happily paying Patron.
In the pursuit of meaningful work, it’s worth noting that being really good at something garners attention. Steven’s penchant for finding balance in sport, passion, creativity, productivity, and simple pragmatism is infectious.
Let’s get into it with this week’s interview with Steven Dimmitt.
Steven Dimmitt the Climber
CC: What is your most proud achievement as a climber? This is not necessarily your hardest grade.
Steven: It’s hard to pick one!
Several routes come to mind as I think back—routes that challenged me, and that a younger version of myself wouldn’t have believed were possible. But it’s funny how the importance of each ascent fades in time. Looking back, every route seems like stepping stones on the path to something greater. I hope that’s the case, because that would mean my proudest achievement is in front of me. 🙂
A few routes that stand out:
- Superman, V10, Leavenworth, WA. Nov 2012
- (My first V10)
- Pale Horse, V10/5.13+, FA, Horse Caves, OR. Aug 2013.
- (This is a ~45 move long boulder problem in a lava cave)
- Stained Glass, V10, Bishop, CA. Feb 2017.
- (One of the most beautiful boulders I have ever climbed)
- Crime Wave, 5.13d, Smith Rock, OR. Nov 2017
- (My first 13d)
- Vicious Fish, 5.13d, Smith Rock, OR. Apr 2018
- Angelina Jolie, V10, Leavenworth, WA. Nov 2019
- (A climb I always thought looked impossible)
Steven Dimmitt on Choosing to Leave a Traditional Job
Steven was educated at Western Washington University with a BA in Music and BS in Plastics Engineering. After securing an engineering gig for a small aircraft manufacturer in Bend, Oregon, Steven fell into a cycle of work/life balance discontent not unfamiliar to readers of this website. Eventually landing on the idea of a different climbing podcast, Steven bought a van, quit his job, and set off in the pursuit of something different. He released his first episode in February of 2020.
I suppose I had witnessed some friends give up dreams to settle into lives that were comfortable, and I didn’t want to end up that way.
Steven Dimmitt
CC: What were the factors leading up to your decision to quit your job, move into a van, and start a climbing podcast?
Taking Climbing Seriously
Steven: I remember making a decision one day in 2012. It was early summer, and I was in the back of a friend’s SUV driving out to a crag called Equinox, near Bellingham, WA where I had just finished university. That was my first season of sport climbing. After bouldering for several years at that point, I was progressing quickly through the sport grades.
I remember doing my first 5.12a in April. I was so pumped at the anchor I could barely clip the chains. By June, I was warming up on that 5.12a and projecting the 5.12c extension. By August, I was warming up on the 5.12c and projecting my first 5.13a.
On the drive to the crag that day, I remember that I couldn’t stop smiling. 5.13a had seemed like a dream only a few short months ago. Now, anything seemed possible.
I actually made two decisions. The first was that I would climb 5.14 one day. It seemed impossible, but so had 5.13a not so long ago. Why not try? The second thing I decided is that I would move into a van and become a full-time climber for at least a year, by the time I was 30. I don’t know why the length was one year, and I don’t know why the age was 30. I suppose I had witnessed some friends give up dreams to settle into lives that were comfortable, and I didn’t want to end up that way. That decision stayed in the back of my mind for seven years.
I remember thinking, “nobody else is willing to do this.” I thought that meant I was on the right path. It felt like sacrifice, and I thought sacrifice was the key to becoming the best climber I could be.
Steven Dimmitt
An Engineer First
Steven: Throughout my mid-20s I worked as an engineer for a small aerospace company in Bend, OR. I trained in the gym mid-week and spent my weekends working through increasingly difficult routes at Smith Rock, my local sport climbing crag. It seemed that I had found the path to reaching my full potential as a rock climber. I thrived on structure, and the 9-5 grind gave me structure. Pouring my engineer’s mind into indoor training, I had a relentless pursuit to improve at climbing.
I remember doing whatever it took to stick to the training program I designed for myself. To capitalize on the cool morning conditions, I would wake up at 4am during the summers to fit in an 1.5 hr hangboard session before work at 7am. I drove straight from Smith Rock to the gym on Sunday evenings to do a strength workout, skipping a beer with my friends. It didn’t matter that I was exhausted and my fingers hurt from a long weekend of climbing.
I remember thinking, “nobody else is willing to do this.” I thought that meant I was on the right path. It felt like sacrifice, and I thought sacrifice was the key to becoming the best climber I could be.
Training Isn’t the Secret?
Eventually I hit a plateau, and I became frustrated. Not only that, but I noticed that many of my friends were improving steadily without any of the sacrifices I was making. They simply climbed, tried hard when it counted, and enjoyed themselves. I was bitter about this at first, but in time the bitterness morphed into curiosity. The bitter question I had been asking myself was, “Why do I have to work so much harder than everybody else?” Eventually it became a simple mystery: “What am I missing?”
I began asking questions. I noticed themes and wanted to know more. The podcast was one of the “lightbulb moments” that we all hear about in stories. Working in my engineering cubicle, I fell in love with podcasts. I became fascinated with the long form conversations on Joe Rogan, Tim Ferriss, Armchair Expert, and many others. I felt like I had access to the greatest mentors of our time, right there on my iPhone.
Any topic I was interested in was one click away. It took a while, but eventually it occurred to me that there was a climbing podcast that didn’t exist, that I was dying to listen to. A podcast featuring the very best climbers of our time and their answers to all of my burning questions. I don’t know why, but I knew I could make it.
A Timeline to Producing Income: “Be So Good They Can’t Ignore You”
CC: Did you give yourself a timeline to produce a new income stream? How did you prepare to be without a job and an unknown future income source?
Steven: I gave myself one year. I figured that was enough time to know whether the podcast would be successful or not. My friend Lizzy VanPatten once told me that she saved $20,000 before one year on the road in her van, so that’s what I did.
I didn’t make a spreadsheet, form a budget, or calculate expenses. I just figured $20k was plenty to live on the road for a year, whatever might happen. It’s admirable to see people leap early and find a way to scrape together a living, but I opted for a safety net. I wanted the freedom to focus on making the podcast, without any pressure to monetize it—at least for a while.
I wanted to create without the added pressure of needing a paycheck. Cal Newport’s idea*, “be so good they can’t ignore you,” resonates with me. I thought if I did my best work, I’d find a way to monetize the podcast later. If I couldn’t find a way, then the podcast probably wasn’t that good.
*CC footnote: The idea of building career capital through a well-honed craft is explored deeply in Cal Newport’s must-read book, So Good They Can’t Ignore You. The title of this book comes from a Charlie Rose interview with Steve Martin (great short video clip here), who offered the simple and profound advice summarized in the book title.
If we give ourselves all the time in the world to get something done, that’s exactly how long it will take.
Steven Dimmitt
Steven Dimmitt on the Early Days of Professional Freedom
CC: What was your biggest surprise about the early days of having no boss, no particular routine, and simply the availability to climb and speak with others about climbing?
Steven: We tend to think our problems would be solved if we had more time. “I’ve just been too busy,” or, “I don’t have the time,” are such common stories we tell ourselves. But the truth is, having more time doesn’t change our priorities. If something is important to us, there is always enough time to get it done. If it’s not a priority, we let other things take up the slack.
I realized pretty quickly that having the freedom to work when I wanted, sleep as much as I wanted, and waste as much time as I wanted, are all double edge swords. I realized too that creating boundaries with work, building good habits, and even creating some artificial constraints (such as set working hours or days) were critically important for productivity. That is one of the main reasons I publish episodes every week. If we give ourselves all the time in the world to get something done, that’s exactly how long it will take.
Steven Dimmitt on Balancing Creativity as an Engineer
CC: You clearly have a creative side but pursued a career in engineering. Did you ever feel like you had to suppress your creative outlets when in a traditional job?
Steven: My engineering job never satisfied my creativity. I always sought creative outlets outside of work. Climbing is a creative outlet, but I tried leaning exclusively on climbing for creativity, and it wasn’t enough.
I’m a maker. I’ve always liked making things, whether it was a musical composition, a climbing wall in my garage, or a hangboard I could mount in my van. I like facing problems and finding solutions. I like making practical things, but I also like creative expression. This is a uniquely human thing.
I used to express myself through creating music. Now I do it through climbing and storytelling. The podcast combines both—the practical, and the expression. It is the most satisfying creative work I’ve ever done.
Steven Dimmitt on Eating Disorders and Passionate Pursuits
CC: You’ve spoken about your battle with an eating disorder born out of a strong desire to perform as a rock climber. What is it about this sport that drives so many of us to perceived extremes? How has your mentality changed in recent years to make climbing more sustainable?
Steven: I don’t know if climbing drives us, or if rather, it is driven people who are drawn to rock climbing. I suspect it’s the latter.
Looking back at my life, I’ve always had an obsession of one form or another. As a kid it was playing with Legos. Later it was video games (not just playing them, but trying to improve my stats and level up my abilities), then ultimate frisbee, and then creating music.
Climbing is the first activity I found that seemed to combine all of the things I loved. The quantified nature of climbing grades felt like an irresistible draw. I think my deeper obsession is self-improvement, and rock climbing is an excellent vehicle for measuring progress. For the most part, climbing has been nothing but a positive force in my life. But anything can become unhealthy if taken too far.
Crossing the Line
A lot of driven athletes cross that line at points in their career. An overuse injury is a great example. An eating disorder in a strength to weight ratio sport is another. Those are hard lessons, but hopefully, we only need to learn them once.
It’s strange to say, but my eating disorder was really born out of a misunderstanding. I thought I could force myself into the body type I idolized in others who were naturally leaner and less muscular than me. Perhaps I could hack the genetic cards I was dealt. I was wrong. I do think that some body types are more ideal than others for certain types of climbing, but I understand now that each of us will only become our best by embracing our genetics, not by fighting them.
We all have genetic strengths and weaknesses. I think I was leaving a lot on the table by trying to force my body to be lighter than it wanted to be. I’ve decided to double down on my strengths, and use my muscles to become a more powerful climber than I’ve ever been in the past. It was hard at first. I felt like I was learning to climb in a new body, and that was demoralizing at times. But I’m beginning to see the light. I feel like I have more potential to improve in new areas than I had ever believed possible. The new path feels like the right one—a path I can move forward on for years or decades to come.
Monetizing Something Often Given Away For Free
CC: You’ve tastefully managed to transition from a 100% free podcast to a growing Patreon following. Talk me through the interesting dance of monetizing something that is so often given away for free. How has your stance on making money in the climbing industry changed?
Steven: It is an interesting dance. We are so used to getting things for free (podcasts, blogs, YouTube videos, etc.) that I wasn’t sure if anyone would be willing to support my work. I think the key is to offer additional value for the people who already love what you do. Go after the super fans, the people who listen to every episode, and give them even more of what they love.
I often reach out and thank Patrons personally for signing up for $5 per month, but more than not, I get an email back saying something like, “No, thank you for making such a great podcast!” It feels like a win-win. The die hard fans get more of what they love, and they are thrilled to support the show in return. $5 per month feels inconsequential for most people, but it adds up fast for the artist.
Another key has been to pay attention to what I enjoy doing, and what I don’t enjoy doing. I had some other ideas for Patreon content along the way, but I felt myself hesitating. Eventually I realized it was because those ideas didn’t sound fun. I love having conversations and connecting with guests, so the Follow-Ups are fun for me. I love answering questions from my fans and listeners, so I enjoy the Q&As.
Having your own business gives you the unique opportunity to do more of the things you enjoy, and less of the things you dislike. Build your business model around that, and work will feel like play.
Steven Dimmitt on Growing a Business
CC: As people age, they often find that a simple life with simple needs is no longer enough. Some of this involves lifestyle inflation and perhaps a hedonistic mentality, while some of this is a more natural and acceptable shift towards comfort as we age. Have you given much thought to how you’d like to expand from the Nugget and reach a broader audience, presumably increasing revenue and allowing for some more creature comforts (you’ve mentioned you’d like to buy a house)?
Steven: This is the area I’ve been focused on lately. I feel like I’ve reached Stage 3. Stage 1 was to make the podcast I was dying to listen to. Stage 2 was to make enough money to sustain life on the road while producing weekly episodes. Now I’m at Stage 3, which is to think bigger and build this into a real business.
Money was never my goal, but I work on the podcast full-time and I believe I am creating real value for people. If I let myself think a little bigger, there is no reason why I can’t make enough money from the podcast to buy a house someday. I just need to break down some self-limiting beliefs, and remember to value my own work.
I’ve recently decided to invest in a podcast profit course. I just started the course, but I already have some ideas for how to grow the podcast. It’s exciting. I also plan on doing some coaching in the future. I have always loved teaching, and a friend of mine helped me realize what was right in front of me—that I could teach people how to make their own podcast. It immediately felt right. That will likely be the next project.
When you build something, doors start to open. It takes self-awareness to know which doors you should walk through, and which you should pass by. You’ll have no idea what opportunities may open up, until they do. That’s the exciting part.
Income Goals for Long-Term Saving
CC: As a continuation of the above, have you given much thought to the right amount of income that provides for bare minimum expenses vs medium- to long-term savings goals?
Steven: I honestly haven’t given this much thought. I love what I do now for work, so the thought of retiring doesn’t feel as important as it once did. I‘m hopeful to save for a house, but I am also comfortable in the van. The success of the podcast takes the stress off. I published my first episode 15 months ago and am already making enough monthly income to cover my expenses living on the road. So in a way, I’m living my dream!
But like I said, I am working on thinking bigger. Not to embrace greed or anything like that, but rather, I’ve been thinking about how much I could do if I could hire an employee, or rent a workspace. I have product ideas that I think my listeners would be excited about, and I would love to see them come to life.
I don’t have specific financial goals for myself or for the business, but I do want to keep growing, just to see what doors open up.
Everything You Need to Know About Living in a Van
CC: Give me five things everyone must know about living in a van full-time.
Weather matters.
And by that, I mean, you really feel the seasons when you live in a van. I have a nice heater, but winters are cold in a van. I have a fridge and a fan on the roof, but summers can be brutally hot. The nice thing about climbing is that we usually end up following mild weather most of the year, which solves both of these problems.
Traveling is awesome.
Imagine breaking up your drive with a full night sleep in your own bed. Or pulling over to cook a good meal instead of stopping for fast food. Road trips are way better in the van.
You are alone a lot.
This will seem obvious, but it will feel like a shock for first-timers. I listen to a lot of audiobooks and podcasts; while I cook breakfast, clean up dishes, and do my daily stretches. I mounted a VIZIO Soundbar above the foot of my bed. I use it constantly. I’m an introvert by nature, but I think I’d go crazy without being able to listen.
Simple is easy.
I remember having way too much stuff when I first moved into the van. This required some ruthless decluttering. I sold or gave away almost everything I owned. There were some things I thought I would miss, but now I don’t remember what they were. There is a feeling of lightness when we declutter our lives. Clean closet, clear mind.
Time flies.
It’s amazing how much time you lose day to day—driving from your campsite to the crag, or to the coffee shop, library, or grocery store. When you work full-time on the road, logistics eat up a lot of time. You have to guard the things that matter. If something is important, schedule it into your day, or do it first thing in the morning.
(Bonus) You must never spill the pee bottle.
First, you must get a pee bottle, and then, you must NEVER spill it. For guys, I recommend one of those white, one-gallon orange juice containers from the grocery store. I got mine at Whole Foods. The opaque white is nice because you can’t see the pee. Also, the citrus will mask some of the smell, even after you rinse it out with water. Replace it with a fresh bottle every so often.
Steven Dimmitt: Final Advice On Chasing the Dream
CC: For all the young (and old) people reading this from their work desk and fed up with their job, what’s your advice for building something from scratch and actually making it work?
Steven: My advice would be to start generating ideas.
Generate ideas
Make it a goal to come up with one idea every day, and add it to a list. Set the bar low. Think of one terrible idea, and simply write it down. Do this every day for a month, and you’ll have 30 ideas to choose from. They might all suck, but you’ll start to notice themes. Things you like, and don’t like. Things you want to do, and don’t want to do. Keep doing this until you stumble into a good idea, then go for it.
Moonlight on the side
I recommend keeping your day job at first, and moonlighting the new business. Expect it to fail, but know that the experience you will get will be priceless. If it doesn’t work, it will lead to something better.
Expect and learn from failure
I had several “failed attempts” before the podcast. I have lists of ideas that never went anywhere. Some of them were bad ideas, and some were merely too risky or impractical. Some I tried and then abandoned. I started an Amazon private label business that took a ton of work, but it made a little passive income for a while. I wrote a blog for a year and wrote some posts that I’m proud of, but the blog never gained much traction. When I got the idea for the podcast, it felt right in a way those other ideas hadn’t.
The key is, I don’t think the podcast would have occurred to me if I hadn’t tried those other things. I needed the failures, the lessons, and the confidence. So don’t worry about your idea being perfect. Find that good idea, and start building something. The momentum will carry you closer to the thing you were meant to do. And yes, you were meant to do something extraordinary.
Stay in Touch with Steven Dimmitt
I want to sincerely thank Steven for taking the time away from all those Nuggets to drop some over here instead. Please head over and check out Steven’s impressive collection of interviews and other materials at the links provided below.
The Podcast (podcast episodes + show notes, about page, contact page): http://thenuggetclimbing.com
Steven’s Personal Instagram Page
Steven’s daily blog (in hiatus)
Mr. CC’s Interview on The Nugget
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