Raise your hand if you want to climb more but work seems to always take up so much time? This notion of balancing work and life is essentially the essence of what we do on this site, and there’s nobody better to discuss this intricate balance than elite-level climber and software engineer Mike Doyle.
Mike Doyle came across my radar in a real way during his 2015 siege of the notorious test-piece Necessary Evil (5.14c) in the Virgin River Gorge of Arizona. I had read a few things about him prior, but I was really moved to a heightened level of appreciation after watching what he was able to achieve on this single route. (For a podcast interview on that process, check out Mike’s interview on TrainingBeta.)
Related Post: Paige Claassen: Making a Difference
Was it the fact that he sent the route at age 37? Or maybe it was his ability to live on the floor of a rented apartment⏤”The Villa” as Mike called it⏤in the colorful paradise of Mesquite, NV (so that he could be 20 mins from the route). Or hell, maybe I was mostly impressed with his ability to juggle a very demanding remote work position and achieve what others don’t with far more free time to dedicate to this sport. I guess it was all of the above.
Below Mike graciously outlines his life of remote work and his frequently more mobile existence in recent years.
While you settle in with your popcorn or get more comfortable on the toilet (I know how you are), let’s watch a really great video on Mike’s process on Necessary Evil:
Getting Started in Software Engineering
CC: Can you give me a bit of background on your career in software engineering?
Mike: I studied Computer Science at Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, BC – Part of Greater Vancouver. I did a co-op job during my last few semesters at a startup based in Vancouver and transitioned to full time immediately after graduating. Unfortunately the startup never took off and after eight years I laid myself off and moved to the United States in search of a drier climate and better sport climbing. I settled on Las Vegas and that’s where I’ve been based ever since.
The Evolution of Remote Work
CC: How Did you land a fully remote position?
Mike: My remote work actually started when I was working in Vancouver. Initially it was just a way of extending the weekend or a vacation. I put up a route on Vancouver Island called ADATO (Another Day At The Office) because I did the FA on a Friday when I was working remotely.
In 2005 I made a decision to move to Seattle (for a girl of course) and actually submitted my resignation to my company in Vancouver. They didn’t want to lose me and incorporated in the United States, hired me on a work visa and I stayed employed with them full time, just working remotely. I haven’t worked full time from an office since then.
Moving to Vegas and Sealing the Remote Work Position
Mike: When I moved to Las Vegas in January 2009 (right after the financial collapse, not the smartest move on my part) I had a job lined up but it fell through as I was driving to Las Vegas. I got the call somewhere in Oregon if I remember correctly. So I was left scrambling to find a job.
I interviewed at a few places around Vegas and in Boulder, CO. After securing a job offer from both Vegas and Boulder, I initially turned down the job in Boulder. I mean, why would anyone want to live in Boulder if you can live in Vegas?? The company in Boulder then offered me the option of working remotely and I took it.
I worked for that company for almost five years before getting sucked back into the startup grind by a company based out of Seattle. I’ve been with them for over seven years now and it is definitely still a grind… But I get to work remotely so that’s a plus.
Mike Doyle on Remote Travel Logistics
CC: You get around a lot throughout the year. Logistically, how does this work? Do you bounce around from one Airbnb to the next, short-term rent? How do you keep costs in check?
Mike: I’ve been lucky, I have some very kind friends.
In the winter of 2017/2018 I was working so much that I barely left the house (the perils of remote work). I had done most of the climbing that motivated me as a weekend warrior around Las Vegas, and couldn’t make the time required for bigger objectives or summon the mental energy for training.
I decided to make a change. I figured that I work remotely, so why not go places with good friends and good climbing nearby?
Since April of 2018 I have been working ‘extra’ remotely. I’m still based out of Las Vegas but have spent a lot of time in Smith Rock, Vancouver, Canmore, Europe, Kentucky, Colorado, Los Angeles and, of course, Las Vegas.
About half the time I stay with friends in a spare room and mooch off their kindness. I try to repay them with gifts but I’m definitely relying on their generosity. The other half of the time is in either airbnb or short term rentals. I’ve been lucky in getting good deals.
With Airbnb I try to start looking eight to nine months in advance of my travel and get a sense of what the prices are and availability. I then check regularly to see if any deals come up and try to book around six months in advance. Another good resource is to look for local Facebook climbing groups and put a post there. People have been very receptive to traveling climbers that have to work.
Home Ownership
CC: Do you rent or own a home base? If so, do you monetize your home base when you are not there for longer stretches of time?
Mike: I own a house in Las Vegas and rent out two of the three bedrooms. I keep one for myself.
**CC interjection: This is actually really smart, and it’s something we’re considering for our next home purchase. This process, now with a terrible-sounding name of “house hacking,” is truly a way to get ahead at any age. If you can purchase a home and essentially have the mortgage (and perhaps more) paid for you, you are eliminating the number one expense in most people’s lives: housing costs. For much more on that subject, this is a great book.
Related Post: Should I Buy a Home?
Finding a Work/Life Balance: An Example Schedule
CC: How do you balance work and climbing? Can you give me a day or week-in-the-life? Do you have set hours you must work, or are you just accountable for “getting it done?”
Mike: The simple answer is that I don’t have a social life.
I basically work and try to squeeze in climbing when I can. I don’t have set hours that I need to work, but I work for a small company and there is always something to be done.
A standard week is close to the following:
Monday – work 6am-4pm, go for a run then dinner, work 7pm – 10/11pm.
Tuesday – work 6am – 3/4pm, go climbing.
Wednesday – Same as Monday.
Thursday – Same as Tuesday
Friday – Work but try to take off in the early afternoon if I can.
Saturday – Try not to work.
Sunday – Go for a fitness day somewhere. Work 3-4 hours.
The trickiest part of the year is in the winter, when the days are short and I have to get out climbing during core business hours. That requires a lot of communication with my co-workers and can be a little stressful.
One interesting change is that over the last few years I find I work really well late (after 10pm), when my distractions are a little less. So I usually just work until I’m tired.
Van Life Considerations?
CC: Why have you chosen not to go the van-life route? If the job wasn’t in the picture, would you entertain that sort of lifestyle?
Mike: The company I work for specializes in embedded system security. I have to travel with a bunch of devices and need a large workspace. I’m sure I could rig a van up but I don’t think it would be comfortable. I also like to get up and pace around when I’m thinking. Not impossible in a van but maybe not ideal.
I also hate working from a laptop. The keyboard layout is really hard on my forearms and the screen real estate is hard on my workflow. I use a special keyboard to minimize strain on my forearms and love the dual screen setup.
If I didn’t have to work the long hours that I do, then yes, I think a van would be the way to go.
Related Post: Van Life: The Economics and Trade-Offs
Mike Doyle on Staying Focused When Traveling
Mike: I don’t go to remote destinations… Internet access and a workstation are two very large factors when deciding where to go. Also, proximity to climbing. I don’t want to waste time driving or commuting to climbing.
I looked into satellite internet a few years ago but the power setup seemed overwhelming. I’m sure it’s a little better now.
CC: How hard is it to stay motivated to work when you can position yourself frequently in world-class climbing destinations during the best seasons?
Mike: Honestly the biggest issue I’ve had lately is trying to stay motivated to climb. My work is quite mentally exhausting and if I work I find it hard to summon the energy to climb, or at least to climb “hard.”
The last two fall seasons I was in the Red River Gorge and Rifle, arguably two world class climbing destinations and I had ZERO motivation to climb. It was really unusual for me.
I realized that if I want to climb on the shorter fall days I need to not work at all. Once I plug in, even for a few hours, I can’t be bothered to rock climb. However, if I wake up and start focusing on climbing (stretching, visualizing etc…) then I’m much more motivated.
The other thing I’ve realized is that if I am going to train I have to do it first thing in the morning. If I wait until the evening I am too tired and the training is useless.
Live and learn!
Mike Doyle’s Tips for Maximizing Performance and Progressing Career
Mike: I think of work or a career as just a distraction from climbing. Everyone has ‘distractions’ in their life; family, other activities or other responsibilities. For me it is about prioritizing what’s important. When climbing is important then I can make time for it. Nowadays there are good training facilities almost everywhere. Pick a goal, create a plan, make the time, execute.
The Long Game for Finances and Career
CC: Do you see yourself staying in software engineering for the long-term? Do you optimize your finances in any way to eventually step away from that line of work?
Mike: As much as I’d love to believe that my company will get bought for a billion dollars I don’t think that’ll happen. I enjoy my work but definitely want to try and back off a bit. My goal right now is to figure out how to switch to, and stick to, a four day work week. I think I can work four days long-term. My current workload is definitely not sustainable if I hope to focus on performance rock climbing again.
I already work long hours but I’m hoping to do a pay cut and bank days for longer vacations. There are quite a few places in the world that I want to travel and not take my work with me. I earn enough to be able to continue to travel on a reduced income, but I won’t be able to save as much for retirement. It’s a bit of a risk but one I would like to do while I can.
(For some other thoughts on the dilemma of saving for retirement, check out this post: Retirement? Don’t Worry, I’ll be Fine!)
Parting Thoughts
That’s it for this week’s interview with Mike Doyle. I really love to see people climbing hard and balancing other important facets of life. If you’d like more similar posts on how to game out your climbing, life, and career, I’d recommend checking out all the features over at the Interview Series.
Be sure to check out Mike’s page on Instagram to keep up with his journey.
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Thanks guys, see you next week.
Please note, Mike Doyle supplied all photos. Please reach out to him for permission to republish.