Good morning. My ankle is doing much better. Sorry to alarm some of you with last week’s post. The photo was bad, but I’m fairly certain it’s only a sprain. Much more importantly, this week I want to welcome Eliza Marsh.
In this week’s interview, we discuss how Eliza has balanced a career with extended travel, and some of her unexpected surprises of life on the road. We examine how she manages full-time remote work, and how she recently stumbled on a new and exciting path towards saving for financial independence, which she rightfully recognizes as a great privilege. Perhaps most importantly, we’ll see how Eliza has completely reframed her mindset around money, her future, and how she plans to use this great gift of financial freedom.
Eliza Marsh: An Introduction
You’ve never heard of Eliza Marsh. As is somewhat customary with discussions of money, Eliza has chosen to take on a pseudonym for this interview. And I appreciate this stance. Eliza, as we’ll call her, started reaching out via email in mid-2020 with some delightfully thoughtful questions. While Eliza is only 28 years old, I’ve been continually impressed with her thought processes on juggling life, careers, the responsible use of money, as well as building a community.
Perhaps most importantly, you’ll note in the interview below that Eliza has given notable consideration to issues of privilege: she knows her path is different from that of others. She and her wife are considering how to best navigate some of the often unspoken privileged tenants of money and financial independence. This is something my wife and I have also considered at length, so I welcome the thought-provoking discussion.
Eliza now lives with her wife in the Midwest. With a Bachelor’s Degree in Sociology, she now works full-time remote doing “data stuff” as she calls it. She works part-time at a startup, and part-time as a market research freelancer. She yearns for the days of more mountains and freedom in a post-covid world. But until then, let’s settle into a great conversation with Eliza.
Eliza Marsh the Climber
CC: Tell me about you as a climber. What styles do you enjoy? Tell me about a particular route or boulder problem that made you proud and why (not necessarily hardest grade).
Eliza: Even though I’m on the tall end for female climbers (5’8”), I’d say I have your classic lady-climber strengths: crimping, footwork, and technique (developed due to the fact that I couldn’t do a single pull-up when I started climbing). Outside I’m primarily a sport climber. I’m drawn to routes that have interesting movement and preferably as few slopers as possible (I’m working on them, they’re just hard, ok).
When I started climbing in the Midwest, I was ‘projecting’ 5.8. I moved to Boulder, CO for work a few years later. The grade of 5.12 was the ultimate accomplishment for an amateur climber in my mind. I wanted to prove to myself that I could set an ambitious goal (for me) and attain it. After two years of work overcoming fears of leading outside and getting stronger, I achieved this milestone somewhat anticlimactically, sending a few very fun 5.12s with fewer tries than I expected (highly recommend: A Tall Cool One in Boulder Canyon, Jolt Cola in Boulder Canyon, and Pilgrimage in St. George).
A First Real Project
Eliza: The route I’m most proud of came later. I followed a friend to Wall of the 90s in Clear Creek Canyon to work on a project of his: Ten Digit Dialing, 5.12c. After he climbed it, I top roped it “just for fun.” It was really hard. I fell at least 15 times. But it felt maybe possible.
The long story short is that I got totally obsessed. I wrote down different beta, visualizing the route constantly. I would literally lay in bed at night “trying to fall asleep,” when in reality I was wide awake, mentally going through the moves. Each attempt I would improve just a little bit, which just increased my captivation with the route. This story has a happy ending. After one-hanging a handful of times in a row, I adjusted a foot placement by maybe 2 inches to a shittier hold (but allowed me to have better balance), and sent next go.
Projecting Ten Digit was the most fun I have ever had on a route. It was my first real project, and one that taught me so much about myself and about climbing. I loved the process of optimizing beta and seeing how the smallest change in body position can have drastic effects on your balance and your ability to make a move.
Extended Travel
CC: Take me through your road trip with your wife? What were your motivations and expectations, and did the experience live up to those expectations?
Eliza: We’ve always wanted to travel (to experience culture and beautiful places), but we didn’t have any money after college. Also, we were both feeling anxious to prove to ourselves that we could actually earn money and have ‘real’ jobs. The plan was always to have a job for three years, save up, then quit and travel.
We spent six months abroad (four months in Europe, one month in Nepal, one month in Vietnam) completely fun-employed. We spent another seven months living in our Subaru, road-tripping out west.
The abroad part of the trip was supposed to be the ‘hard’ part. We would have to plan a bit more in advance to book Airbnbs and hostels. Plus, it takes a lot more mental energy to move through a culture and language that is unfamiliar to you. In contrast, living in our Subaru was supposed to be completely stress free. We built a platform in the back so we could sleep in the car pretty much anywhere, meaning that we didn’t really have to plan more than a day in advance. We could move with the weather and do whatever we wanted!
We got beauty-fatigue; snow-capped mountains no longer moved our souls. Dramatic beaches were “fine.”
Eliza Marsh
Eliza Marsh on Remote Work on the Road
Eliza: I am super indecisive (typical analysis paralysis), so it turns out ‘doing whatever you want’ comes with its own difficulties. Additionally, right before we set off in our Subaru, I got an opportunity to work 20 hours per week remotely at a start-up I was excited about. I imagined doing two 10-hour work days a week on rest days, making a little money, bridging the gap in my resume, and still being able to do all of the adventuring we had planned on. So, I took the job.
The (Sometimes) Harsh Realities of Life on the Road
Eliza: The reality was that we quickly got tired of constantly looking for good dispersed campsites near coffee shops or libraries with free WiFi (pre-COVID). We got tired of trying to optimize our schedule (how can we fit in those 20-hours of work per week while also doing all of the adventures we wanted to do?). We got decision-fatigue; should we stay here longer? Where should we go next? Where should we sleep? Does this campsite seem good? What should we do now that we know the weather forecast is rain for the next 10 days? We got beauty-fatigue; snow-capped mountains no longer moved our souls. Dramatic beaches were “fine.”
It was still an absolutely wonderful experience. But what really helped us was having “anchor points” along the way. While abroad, we planned multi-week WWOOFing stays every two months or so. These stays allowed us to work on farms in exchange for room and board. People would just tell us what to do and we would do it (and get to know some really cool people while we were there). In the US, I eventually sent a desperate email to my aunt and uncle in Montana, asking if we could stay in their basement guest room for a few weeks to recharge. Those “anchor points,” or brain breaks where we could develop a semblance of a routine were critical to the overall success of our trip.
Related Post: The Simple and Complicated Life on the Road
The idea of ‘financial independence’ for someone who isn’t the founder of a successful startup or a hedge fund manager or someone who comes from wealth was new to me. The idea that you could become financially independent and also live modestly was new to me. It totally changed my outlook.
Eliza Marsh
Discovering a Path to Financial Independence
CC: How did discovering this path of “financial independence” change your perceptions of money. How do your natural instincts as a planner shape your thoughts?
Eliza: After traveling, I found myself in a decently paying job, but my wife and I still lived as if we were saving for our travels (a.k.a. frugally). We love to camp, climb, hike, cook, and spend time with friends, none of which are particularly expensive hobbies (once you acquire the equipment). I listened to your podcast interview with Power Company Climbing (link) right as I was beginning to wonder what to do with the savings we were beginning to accumulate.
Power Company Climbing Podcast Episode 174: Clipping Chains: Financial Independence
The idea of ‘financial independence’ for someone who isn’t the founder of a successful startup or a hedge fund manager or someone who comes from wealth was new to me. The idea that you could become financially independent and also live modestly was new to me. It totally changed my outlook. I don’t feel the need to become financially independent in my 30s. However, the freedom to choose how I spend my time in my 40s or 50s really resonated with me.
I have natural instincts as a planner. Therefore I really feel a sense of enjoyment and accomplishment through saving. Obviously it can always be taken too far, but it has helped me develop good habits that bring me joy.
The Mechanics of Saving
CC: To the extent you feel comfortable explaining, how are you and your wife preparing for your financial future? Mechanically, what do you do each year?
Eliza: I got my tendency towards frugality from my dad, who also taught me a thing or two about the mindset of investing towards retirement. He has always told me that “a dollar invested today is a dollar that is working the hardest for you in the long term. It’s the best dollar you could spend.”
Since I’m predominantly a freelancer with no benefits, our mechanics are a bit DIY.
- I get health insurance through my wife’s graduate school.
- We max out IRAs for both of us each year (through Charles Schwab and Betterment).
- I also have a Solo 401k (through TD Ameritrade), which is an awesome way for freelancers to contribute a ton of tax-advantaged money. With a Solo 401k, you can contribute up to the limit as an employee ($19,500 right now), and also up to 25% of your income as an employer, with an overall limit of $57,000. I also enjoy the idea that I get to be two people at once, ha.
- Lastly, I have a typical investment brokerage account (non-tax-advantaged, through Betterment) that I had originally thought would be the pre-retirement-age money or potentially down-payment-on-a-house money. However, since your mention of the Roth Conversion Ladder, I might have to rethink this strategy! I use a mix of Mint and spreadsheets to track our income, budgets, and spending. Mint isn’t perfect, but it works well enough.
We are definitely still in early stages, and I imagine our strategy around specific accounts, services, and funds will continue to evolve. For example, I probably shouldn’t be paying 0.25% for Betterment’s robo-advisor services…
Related Post: Your 2021 Guide to Actually Saving Real Money
A Life After Financial Independence
CC: If you were to achieve your version of financial independence, how would your life look?
Eliza: To be honest, I’m not totally sure. I’d love to continue working on projects or for companies that I’m inspired by (startups? non-profits?). That said, I’d also like the flexibility to take a few months off each year to travel and climb.
The biggest challenges I foresee are:
a) Finding a company I believe in that is willing to allow me to work for them on my schedule with significant time off;
b) Finding other people who can take off time to go on climbing trips with me (my wife is my #1 adventure buddy, but not a climber), and;
c) If we have kids. Kids would bring a few different variables into the equation that would change what life looks like simply from a logistics and scheduling point of view in addition to financial.
…Who has the means to own property and who does not (which can also honestly be said about the entire topic of financial independence)…?
Eliza Marsh
Eliza Marsh: Considering Home Ownership
CC: Take me through your thought process on whether or not to own a home.
Eliza: Ha, it’s a bit scattered. I’d say my first thought is: “Do I even want to own a house??” While you may get some sort of return on the purchase of a home, you also hear about what a “money pit” a home can be.
Maybe you should buy a duplex or something of that nature to rent or put on Airbnb. However, that also brings up complicated social justice topics around who has the means to own property and who does not (which can also honestly be said about the entire topic of financial independence… definitely something I don’t have fully formed thoughts about yet).
My second thought is: “How could I possibly decide how much to spend on a home / which house to buy / what neighborhood to look in / etc. etc.??” A home purchase is also a commitment to a place and to a community. The community and neighborhood aspect of a home is one that’s really important to me, but also one that is hard to vet before you purchase a home.
Do I really sit on a 20% down payment gathering dust in a savings account for the next 1-2 years?
Eliza Marsh
The Dilemma of Saving for a Home Down Payment
Eliza: Lastly, my third thought is, “Since I probably do want to buy a home in the next 1-2 years despite the previous two thoughts for a variety of non-financial reasons (home improvement projects, having a nice yard that is “mine,” more space, etc.), how do I smartly save for a down payment?” Do I really sit on a 20% down payment gathering dust in a savings account for the next 1-2 years?
We’ve decided to take a slight risk. We have part of our future down payment hanging out in savings, but we have the other part sitting in an investment/brokerage account. The risk is that the stock market (temporarily) plummets around the time we want to buy a house, and we decide not to touch the invested money until it recovers. If that were to happen, we would either a) put all of the savings gained from my paycheck into our ‘down payment’ pile until we have what we need which would delay our home purchase, or b) put less than 20% down and take the hit on private mortgage insurance.
Related Post: This Just In: The Real Cost of Home Ownership
Eliza Marsh on What is Least Understood About Money
CC: What do you think is least understood about money? Do you feel comfortable having this conversation with friends and family?
Eliza: Everyone’s relationship with money is so different. One (similarly privileged) friend of mine’s parents taught them that money was a private matter, and that it should never be discussed out in the open (especially if you have money, as it could be seen as arrogant). As such, she is uncomfortable talking about it or even really thinking about money.
Cheryl Strayed (author of Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail) spent literally her entire savings on the gear and food she needed to hike the PCT. I can’t recall the exact quote, but she said something like, when you’ve never had any money, you’re ok with not having it.
I have another friend who shares this mentality subconsciously. He feels ok spending the money he earns on gear and trips, even if his savings account is low.
Meanwhile, I come from a privileged middle class background. I’ve never had to worry about money. I’ve always had an unspoken safety net in the form of my parents. All of these things — how my parents dealt with money, the money they spent on me during my childhood, and the financial literacy they taught me all contributed to the privileged relationship I have with money today.
So to answer the original question, I think the least understood thing about money is how fundamentally different it is for people with different histories (parents, privilege, race, etc.).
My ability to make these kinds of decisions toward financial independence is rooted in privilege (with some natural tendencies to help me on my way). The messaging and education around these types of topics is most accessible to people like me. People like you are changing that! (Also, quick shout out to Tiffany Aliche, @thebudgetnista, who is also changing the conversation.) Folks in this industry need to keep working on meeting people where they are and work toward understanding where they have come from.
Related Post: Hi, I’m Privileged. How Are You?
Handling Finances with a Significant Other
CC: How do you handle finances with your wife? Is she on board with this whole financial independence thing?
Eliza: My wife and I have the same sense of frugal living. We have a very similar barometer about what’s worth spending money on and what isn’t. We don’t need a shiny new car, but she goes through running shoes at about the same rate that I go through climbing shoes. I feel very lucky that this is the case. I think having a different approach to money as your spouse can be really difficult.
In terms of the specifics of budgeting, financial planning, or investing, she doesn’t really like to be involved. She’s told me in the past, “If it weren’t for you, I would probably just have a savings account and a debit card.” I don’t think financial independence is really a goal for her, but we’ve talked about it. She is on board with me investing our money with that goal loosely in mind.
Eliza’s Advice for Early-Career Ambitions
CC: What other advice do you have for early-career folks interested in building wealth and improving work/life balance?
Eliza: In terms of building wealth: When you come out of college, don’t let your new fancy salary change your approach to stuff. I think the savings mindset I had right away (saving for our year of travel) has helped me create really good habits. Just because you make more money, get a promotion, etc., doesn’t mean you have to spend it.
In terms of improving work/life balance: I have been extremely fortunate. I got a good job out of college, and made strong connections with a few colleagues who have since left that company to start their own businesses. Without much additional networking, I have a few different streams of freelance work that allows me great flexibility with my schedule and location.
The word “networking” sounds so shallow. I believe that connections are what get you to where you want to go, but those connections don’t have to be superficial. I consider the colleagues I met at that first job good personal friends as well. Working for “the man” is helpful in the beginning of your career, in whatever industry, because those kinds of companies have the tools to teach you. While you’re there, I think making strong connections is invaluable (and makes work more fun, too).
Related Post: Reader Case Study: Maximize Adventure or Career?
That’s a Wrap!
Thanks for reading all the way to the end on this great interview with Eliza Marsh. I want to once again thank Eliza for the courage to share her story of how her mindset around money is dramatically changing. As she implies, independent wealth is not predicated on a CEO salary or creating the next big thing. Eliza’s story is powerful because it shows how drastically we can change the course of our lives with a new mindset and a few carefully crafted simple systems of saving and investing. I dig it like a ditch.
Because this interview is done anonymously, feel free to ask your questions in the comments below or send an email via my contact page, and I’ll get you the information you need.
Remember, the best laid plans mean nothing if you can’t take action today. Have questions? Need some feedback? Hit us up on the contact page.
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Thanks guys, see you next week.
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